Curse

Oofus · Aug 15, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

so um...this CCB consists of a group of people...who are all "high end traders" who sit in major towns verifyng the price of stuff....whats that called again ah yes collusion.

Actually no. Collusion is when a group conspires to SET the prices of a market, not monitor said market. Nothing wrong with monitoring prices, high-end traders do not collude. Thanks for following along.

And nothing wrong with those who are in the know offering any information they might collectively posses to the proper authorities, in this case ANet. I haven't seen anyone here mention that they were going to "bully", "harass" or do any of the other un-tawdry things that have been suggested by some of you posters so maybe you should simply go about your business and refrain from making uninformed comments about what other people may or may not be doing.

Although I have heard several “rumors” over the past several weeks, I don’t really have anything I feel solidly enough about to contribute to the cause, but if I can help in any way don’t hesitate to drop me line.

gone · Aug 15, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by undeadgun

of course it looks crazy amount, but it is evidence to prove they are in someones inventory, not just use a window trick to scam. i know ppl will talk bout it and i know ppl will think, but why i am still playing? Anet knows, and other friend knows

Oh don't get me wrong, I know it's not a trick. you really do have them. but if you are gonna be in the BBC (don't know if you are or not) doesn't it make you think how many your guilde got for the said trade and how many he kept for himself?

shouldn't you be thinking about that?

I'd be thinking about that...If i were just to happen into a great amount of wealth...when a dupe was running..

undeadgun · Aug 15, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by flubber

Oh don't get me wrong, I know it's not a trick. you really do have them. but if you are gonna be in the BBC (don't know if you are or not) doesn't it make you think how many your guilde got for the said trade and how many he kept for himself?

shouldn't you be thinking about that?

I'd be thinking about that...If i were just to happen into a great amount of wealth...when a dupe was running..

i agree with u if i know b4 Aug 14th, but sadly, non of us know it, except the dupers emself. if my pic offended u, i apologize, but i just want ppl know whats going on.

gone · Aug 15, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

no it's not at all like that...but do you see how MANY others just might come under that same unnecessary tripe?

people know and respect you, but as soon as a no-namer makes a deal with a certain amount of questionable items...this brigade will take it upon themselvs to report them..(and we know i'm not talking about the reasonable bidders/traders)

we're not talking a 72 hour ban...it could lead to a permanent ban, because of the way things are now.

undeadgun · Aug 15, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

i can uderstand flubber, if i were u i will sure think the same, but i think u misunderstand Max's point, we here to gathering ppl HAVE the infomation to prove to anet that there still are some bad seed playing in the game, we are not here ask ppl to watch after someone for no reason. we just want to gather those who still have infomation and didnt send a mail to anet to stand up and point out the problem, i hope u can understand me at this point.

ibex333 · Aug 15, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

And what better way to show that by telling ArenaNet "Hey, your Support Team is doing nothing to ban the real dupers, so we're doing your job, you lazy bums!"?

That's right. That's what I'm thinking at least!

And you young man... Don't you have homework to do? Go do your homework!
As a senior, you have to work twice as hard! You don't want to get into a crappy college, do you? Besides.. there's all those CONSOLE games coming up...

PS: I'm in, if I may be of some help. *grabs pitchfork*
*screams* BURN THE WITCH!!! KILL THE HERETIC!!!

gone · Aug 15, 2007, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Yes there are a few that have some very good info, and it is well acquired...

-what scares me is the thousands of people who will read this open forum(no need to join to read) and do exactly what Max didn't want to happen.

undeadgun · Aug 15, 2007, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by flubber

-what scares me is the thousands of people who will read this open forum(no need to join to read) and do exactly what Max didn't want to happen.

i can see your point there, but i will hope that those who have read this thread can now understand us

-Loki- · Aug 15, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Therefore, wouldn't this thread itself be troll bait?

Well, it attracted you didn't it?

Gaile Gray · Aug 15, 2007, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuj08

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this thread was established to discuss why some of the biggest dupers in the game that are well known throughout the high end community are still playing the game while a number of innocent players are getting banned? With that said, given that Gaile wanted the names of these players, I'm positive they have been ousted yet they still remain in the game.

I believe some of us just want to do our part and help ANET clean this mess up.

Every name that is submitted to us is examined. And as you know, we have not completed the investigation, and there may be more bans put in place still.

Don't worry that a delay means that someone can hide the evidence or cover his/her tracks. Don't be concerned if you think someone can mule off the items, or hand them to a third party, or sell them for innocent-looking ectos or gold. It's not possible. For as I've said before, you can run, but you cannot hide.

If someone has names, send them. But please don't take up our time with maybes or possibilities or rumours. If you have solid information, you're welcome to PM me and we'll definitely check it out.

Thanks for your concern and your commitment to help us make the game a better place.

Nuj08 · Aug 15, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

Every name that is submitted to us is examined. And as you know, we have not completed the investigation, and there may be more bans put in place still.

Don't worry that a delay means that someone can hide the evidence or cover his/her tracks. Don't be concerned if you think someone can mule off the items, or hand them to a third party, or sell them for innocent-looking ectos or gold. It's not possible. For as I've said before, you can run, but you cannot hide.

If someone has names, send them. But please don't take up our time with maybes or possibilities or rumours. If you have solid information, you're welcome to PM me and we'll definitely check it out.

Thanks for your concern and your commitment to help us make the game a better place.

I appreciate that Gaile and it sure is reassuring that something is being done.

Sleeper Service · Aug 15, 2007, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Which, by the way, is legal under many circumstances in quite a large number of countries. U.S. antitrust laws strike most nations as quaint at best and nonsensical at worst. There are no laws against such behavior in this game; as a result, such players are free to trade information regarding actual market prices, etc. Further, there's nothing immoral about it.

There's nothing inherently evil about networking and anti-competitive practices; you've merely been raised to believe that they are because of the culture in which you live. There are circumstances under which such practices are unambiguously positive, and there are those under which such practices create unsavory rents.

There's nothing wrong with what these people are trying to do. They're networking to see if additional evidence exists with which to impugn players they believe/know to be guilty of violating the EULA, and they're asking that those that spend a lot of time in town keep an eye out for the sort of evidence that first surfaced a month ago indicating that something might be up. Nothing negative should be expected of such an effort.

Its illegal in the US and illegal in Europe. China? state governed economy (They pull the string so no its only illigal if its not them) japan? borderline.

Trans Atlantic Anti-Trust Law Enforcement
http://ec.europa.eu/comm/competition...002_002_en.pdf

Examples of the Illegality of collusion in Japan
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-b...0070319a2.html

Support your "truths" with PROOF.

I did Mention in the post that i did not hold it against them, and you are right in saying its not illegal within GW (for starters its not real money. and its not even "our" data/cash its Anets)

What im saying is that Its this "networking" or collusion that has made this farce of an economy in the first place. Within a closed system small groups of people have been setting prices (thus controling inflation) at absurd amounts since day 1 resulting in a huge "poor" player base and a select few trading at hundreds of plat and XX ecto. Oh theres no question theres a "poor/medium" trader market which can amply supply most "needs" but when it comes to the kind of prices that incent dupeing/exploiting/buying gold etc. well theres your reason. Theres nothing NEW about this, frankly i no longer care tbh (i use what i find and care not for pets) no. now its just done in the open, clear for everyone to see.
This is what happens when there is no govering body actively controling prices...and might even be a small breather for the great majority of players out there.

black dye down to 5 k
ecto down to 4.5 - i suppose its more related to perma Favour
etc.

Sli Ander · Aug 15, 2007, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Don't have time to read the pages to see if this has been posted(I'll try to later, promise!) but this reminds me of one thing instantly:

.//sign(dot hack sign): The Crimson Knights

But that's just my two cents

Edit:
It would seem that I was beaten by several people in mentioning the Knights, oh well. I feel that this could be a very good thing (taking an active interest in maintaining the community) as long as it doesn't get out of hand. If everyone knows that if they see something suspicious and that the 'neighborhood watch' might be able to confirm, then they'll be more likely to report it to Anet because someone is trying to watch trends. Just as the high-end traders keep track of patterns in the market(and I'm sure report ridiculous scam attempts), this would lend a player reassurance that other players are trying to back them up by seeing if anyone they know has reported similar incidents to Anet.

I think it would be rather interesting if a 'Crimson Knights' type guild (or even one called 'Neighborhood Watch' [CCB]) cropped up in GW2. The more players self-police or coordinate their information on strange offers, etc. the more likely these things will be more quickly caught, confirmed, and reported as a serious problem to Anet.

But that's just my two cents

Martin Alvito · Aug 15, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Its illegal in the US and illegal in Europe.

Oh dear lord. Sure, Europe has antitrust laws on the books, but it's apparently not illegal for the Europeans to form a consortium of all of their airline manufacturers, name it Airbus, and then support it with state-backed low-interest loans in order to help it compete against Boeing. Antitrust laws as we know them are enforced selectively in Europe and not at all interpreted as they would be in the U.S.; look at banking integration over there in the last thirty years, which occurred to a degree that would have been unthinkable in the U.S. until quite recently. U.S. antitrust laws were written with the defining principle that the formation of large concentrations of capital is inherently anti-competitive and dangerous; this attitude came out of domestic economic events from 1890 to around the 1920s. This norm is NOT shared worldwide; the general approach has been that anti-competitive practices which generate efficiencies are OK, but those that generate economic rents are a no-no.

U.S. antitrust laws have been broadly relaxed in the last 15 years as a consequence of lobbying pressure and efforts to compete internationally in sectors such as banking on equal footing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

japan? borderline.

BORDERLINE? You do realize that Honda was instructed by MITI that it was not permitted to sell automobiles in the 1970's; that they were only permitted to sell motorcycles because Japan "had too many automobile manufacturers already"? (Note that Honda chose to fight this directive, which worked out well for them.) Do you also realize the degree to which directorates over there are interlocked? Vertical integration is not only permitted in Japan; it is encouraged to a degree which would be completely impossible in the U.S.

The point is that, depending on what social choice outputs a society wants, it can make sense to permit collusive behavior and anti-competitive practices. Out and out price-fixing is banned pretty much everywhere due to its creation of inefficient economic rents, but that's not what these guys are trying to do here. You're upset that these players are sharing market research data. They don't have a stranglehold on supply.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Support your "truths" with PROOF.

QED. You want more examples, I have them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

What im saying is that Its this "networking" or collusion that has made this farce of an economy in the first place. Within a closed system small groups of people have been setting prices (thus controling inflation) at absurd amounts since day 1 resulting in a huge "poor" player base and a select few trading at hundreds of plat and XX ecto. Oh theres no question theres a "poor/medium" trader market which can amply supply most "needs" but when it comes to the kind of prices that incent dupeing/exploiting/buying gold etc. well theres your reason. Theres nothing NEW about this, frankly i no longer care tbh (i use what i find and care not for pets) no. now its just done in the open, clear for everyone to see.
This is what happens when there is no govering body actively controling prices...and might even be a small breather for the great majority of players out there.

Prove it. Now it's your turn. These statements are totally unsupportable. You have absolutely no data regarding where wealth is concentrated, how much cash/ectos the largest traders have relative to the rest of the marketplace or how many of the Asian minis they supposedly have a stranglehold on. You clearly know very little about the sheer number of ectos that have to be bought and sold at the trader in order to move prices up or down, and you also do not seem to be aware that players that have large numbers of ectos are strongly incentivized to sell them on the open market rather than to the trader whenever possible.

I'll give you an alternative thesis which fits the data: The vast majority of players are poor because they do not manage their cashflow effectively, don't do their homework on true item valuations before making purchases, buy stuff they don't need that they cannot resell for what they pay, and don't spend as much time trying to make in-game cash as the plutocrats of the in-game society.

The extremely rare items in this game trade for 100k + XXX or + XXXX ecto for two reasons:
1) What else can you spend in-game cash on once you reach a certain point of wealth?
2) Supply of those items is highly limited. Note that, with the exception of the Asian minis, the source of new items introduced to the economy is farmers and those players that win in HoH, not the trading community.

Face it, the market functions in this game. People get upset when there's a dupe because it causes turmoil in normally stable markets. This is just like a currency crisis. It tends to affect the wealthy disproportionately, but at the end of the day no one is particularly happy about it.

Toilet Monster · Aug 15, 2007, 08:37 AM // 08:37

this witch hunt is a bit overdone.. ive been reported by some ppl for having tormented stuff and like 1k ecto..

not that anet bans me, coz i didnt dupe my stuff, but suspecting every1 with stuff is just stupid.

I agree that the dupers should be punished tho

Tijger · Aug 15, 2007, 08:45 AM // 08:45

For anyone who posts huge posts about economies and anti-trust, please remember one small thing..

Anet owns the game, owns the economy, in fact, Anet owns every single piece in the game from a single bolth of cloth to all the ectos.
There IS no free market or free economy in GW, its all private property and Anet can do as they please with it, they're exempt from any (economic) law for what goes on inside GW.

If Anet wants to reset all trader prices tomorrow then they can do that without recourse.

Etta · Aug 15, 2007, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Hey! it's a dirty job but someone gotta do it, right?. Might as well be, Max "Gladius" Payne. 1 monk, a full clip and a whole lotta healing spells. If the system fail, then lets the gun do the talking.

I'll be admiring him from the safe distance.

the_jos · Aug 15, 2007, 11:03 AM // 11:03

I only think that Max original post is not specific enough for the purpose.
He called people for the 'neighborhood watch', while there are only a select number of people that can take that role.
This 'neighborhoud watch' idea is what creates fear.

From what I've read so far, what they are trying to do is identifying all persons that trade (or advertise) high-end stuff for prices way above the market.
The only people that can judge this are the people active in the high-end market.

I remember The Herbalizer state in an other post that certain minipet prices seemed heavily inflated. That's something he/she can judge, but I cannot.

If this is what Max intended, he should have said that right away.
Or just have pm-ed the trusted high-end players (in-game or on forum) to get them together.
This high-end community is so small this would have worked without this post on the forum.

I think the initiative is good, only communication was bad.

upier · Aug 15, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

Hey! it's a dirty job but someone gotta do it, right?. Might as well be, Max "Gladius" Payne. 1 monk, a full clip and a whole lotta healing spells. If the system fail, then lets the gun do the talking.

I'll be admiring him from the safe distance.

Word!

fenix · Aug 15, 2007, 11:55 AM // 11:55

Yeah, I'll be putting in an effort to report people who OBVIOUSLY duped stuff. I think most got dealt with, which is nice